ZAINAB BANGURA
By Umaru Fofana
United Nations Undersecretary General in charge of sexual violence in conflict has not ruled out running for president of Sierra Leone.
In an exclusive interview with Politico, Zainab Bangura said she had been repeatedly asked the question.
For her full interview including her views on UN peacekeepers and sexual violence, abortion, rape, the Ebola outbreak, see the following:
The Interview:
Undersecretary General and Special Representative of the UN Secretary General on Sexual Violence and Conflict, Zainab Bangura spoke to Politico recently on a wide range of issues. In this interview the former health and foreign minister of Sierra Leone talks about recent sexual abuse allegations against United Nations peacekeepers in Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Central Africa Republic among others. She also talks about the response to the Ebola outbreak as someone who also confronted the cholera outbreak, and her touted presidential ambition. read on:
Politico: Mrs. Bangura how would you characterise sexual violence and women particularly in conflict African countries?
Zainab Bangura: I think it's a big problem from Libya to Mali, Cote D'Ivoire to DRC and the Central Africa Republic. It is a big challenge. But since I took over, I have actually developed good working relationships, signed joint communiqués with the government of the DRC, with Somalia and South Sudan. The biggest challenge we have now is actually with South Sudan and Central African Republic. And so governments have made commitments. It's very difficult because you cannot address the problem of sexual violence without the Rule of Law and I think the Rule of Law is one of the casualties of conflict. So in a lot of the countries we work the judiciary has been affected by the conflict. The police are not well trained, they don't have the ability to investigate and sometimes the laws are just not on the books. So it's a lot of work but I think we now seem to have a road map of what we do when we go into a country and what the challenges and expectations are.
Politico: How bad is the situation for women in the Central African Republic, for example.
Zainab Bangura: I think the problem of the Central Africa Republic is that it is a failed state. When I went there to visit the second time, we couldn't even have a functioning police where women can report. And one of the programmes we are trying to support there is to actually train 100 Gendarmerie. You couldn't believe they didn't have an office. And once the programme was approved we realised that we needed to renovate a building, and with the building you have to provide logistics, so it's a state that is only in name and once you don't have the institutions of government that are related to the Rule of Law functioning, nobody can take action. There's a lot of impunity because there is no way you can report and there's no ability to investigate and of course there are no courts. And so it's a situation we have seen in many countries but the Central African Republic is the worst.
Politico: And that is made even so by the fact that UN peacekeepers in the country are being accused of sexual violence against women.
Zainab Bangura: This has been a very distressing experience for the UN Secretary General. He's actually taken a very strong stand on it. As I speak to you, a lot of action is taking place in New York. He is very, very angry and determined and committed to make sure that we address it once and for all. He's put everybody under pressure.
Politico: How bad is it, as far as you know - the allegations against these peacekeepers?
Zainab Bangura: It's not my mandate, I don't work on it. I get the information, and some I get from the UN media. I think it's not very good. That much I can say and I think the UN is very saddened. The Secretary General is also working with troop-contributing countries. He actually held several meetings with them and he has asked our colleague who is the UnderSecretary General for DPKO and also the UnderSecretary General for DFS - that is the Department for Field Support...they are working very closely with member states. Now they have moved to get countries to act quickly when such an incident occurs. But the Secretary General is extremely determined that we deal with the problem once and for all.
Politico: Isn't the UN itself part of the problem at the highest level. This is not new, it's been happening for as long as UN missions have been operating abroad. They have not acted tough enough, some say.
Zainab Bangura: I think they have. I think the challenge we have is that the UN does not have its own peacekeepers. We get peacekeepers from troop-contributing countries and so you sign an agreement for actions to be taken. And the UN has tried as much as possible, but it's a very complex and difficult situation - collecting the evidence, protecting the evidence and if you have the prosecution, prosecution has to take place in the troop-contributing countries. So we have done as much as we can. It's unfortunate, the most recent incident. You could remember in Sierra Leone, when I was a civil society activist I had a lot of problems and the then Secretary General, Kofi Annan actually instituted an inquiry. And I think we all thought we had solved the problem because then there was a tremendous reduction, whatever we may say. There was a lot of reduction but all of a sudden...and I don't want to go into this, as I said it's not my mandate. But all I can say - because I see it, I get the emails - the Secretary General has galvanised the UN to make sure that this time we get it right.
Politico: And is that a promise. Do you believe that?
Zainab Bangura: Definitely! Because I attend some of the meetings. I think this time the Secretary General is going to stand. The Secretary General is going to make sure this issue is addressed once and for all.
Politico: In the case of your country Sierra Leone, the issue of violence against women - rape, children becoming mothers and all that, it’s got some very grim figures about teen pregnancy etc. What’s your take on that?
Zainab Bangura: Well, I think I have been extremely saddened by it. Interestingly it's about a year or two ago that the president [Ernest Bai Koroma] actually attended a conference in Addis Ababa for the AU. He really raised it as well and said he doesn't know what is happening. He raised his concern with me...and before I came this time, I spoke to my colleague, the head of UNFPA, I spoke to the head of UN Women - they are all Under Secretaries General - and I told them about the problems in Sierra Leone and they made their commitments to help deal with the problem. Because, you see, Sierra Leone is actually no longer under my schedule because I work on conflict countries. I have actually had a meeting with all the UN entities, the UN country team to discuss that issue, to listen to what they have been doing, to listen to the challenges they have. And so I have agreed with them that they need to come with a very comprehensive proposal to see what needs to be done. I met with the women lawyers, I met people in the police force, I've met people in the judiciary. Because I think if there's nothing else I can leave for Sierra Leone, I have the professional expertise and it's my responsibility to help solve that problem. It's a serious problem and I think we have to deal with it.
Politico: How can that be dealt with - some people blame the institutions, some people blame it on the lack of the political will?
Zainab Bangura: Well, I think the first and foremost, we have the law. It's not perfect - the Sex Offenders Act. We could actually improve on it. But at least we have it. I am meeting the new Chief Justice… We had a Saturday court, I need to know what happened to it because we were using Sierra Leone as a success story. We had the family support unit in the police. It's only now being drawn to my attention that some of the offices are not ideal, we need to train the staff. So the idea was there and I get this experience even when I travel to most countries - It's one thing to prepare the laws. The challenge we have is implementation - enforcing the mechanism and I think that's what we need to do. To be able to make sure that whosoever commits rape, it doesn't matter who you are, we go after you and we get you. Once you make it expensive to commit sexual violence, you go after perpetrators, you look after victims, people will understand this is no longer a second class crime happening to second class citizens. We have to make it very expensive to commit that crime. So I am trying to mobilise the women, the UN entities and other institutions, then we will be able to know which is the weak link. Is it the police, is it the judiciary? We also have to do a lot of public awareness. I just met the president of the religious council and I was going to talk to him about it. Because one of the issues I discussed with the UN entities is to bring the traditional leaders and the religious leaders because sometimes people take the cases out of court. People come and say we have discussed this as a family unit, this is my daughter and I don't want this case to be tried - so there’s a lot of work. You can't do it haphazardly. You have to have a comprehensive approach, bring everybody onboard - including the schools. There is nothing wrong with us teaching it in schools and the parents also have a responsibility. There is no culture that says you have to abuse your women.
Politico: Two other issues affecting women in Sierra Leone are the female genital mutilation and abortion. At present there is a big tussle between the religious leaders and the women activists who are saying that there should or shouldn't be a law allowing for safe abortion. It was initially passed by parliament and now the president has refused to sign it and has sent it back to them. Do you think abortion should be legalised in Sierra Leone.
Zainab Bangura: Well, I think for me I have to be honest with you. It’s a difficult question for me to answer. I don't want to give the UN position. It comes out in my annual report on sexual violence because we recommend safe abortion. With regards to Sierra Leone, I try to keep away from it. Because I don't want to make comment and people come out and say this is what the UN said. If I say anything now people will say this is the UN speaking. So I've been asked this question several times. For me I think it's important for UNFPA - our colleagues who are dealing with reproductive rights and health - to be able to deal with it so I try to keep away from the debate. I recommend in my paper in the Secretary General's report, as we recommend on an annual basis, that in the case of rape in conflict we should give an option to the woman whether she wants to have the baby or she wants to abort it. It is important to have well-established institutions to be able to get her to do the abortion in a safe way.
Politico: And that's only for pregnancies as a result of rape?
Zainab Bangura: Well yes, because that's what I work on, that's my mandate. I have met a woman in the DRC who was raped by five men and then she got pregnant. Every time she looked at the baby, she tried to strangle the baby because the baby reminds her of the five men. So the trauma of rape, the stigma associated with rape, the ostracisation, the abandonment is very difficult for women to deal with and it destroys them for life. I met a woman in Bosnia who said “they took my life away without killing me”. Another who said: “I can't think of the future because the past is still with me”. The consequence of rape in conflict is far-reaching. And it doesn't stop when the guns fall silent. So for us we try to get a victim-centred approach. It’s the consequences for the woman, the damage and the destruction is what matters to us. We cannot think about the perpetrator because that person belongs in jail.
Politico: And Female Genital Mutilation?
Zainab Bangura: I think there is an AU convention. As you are aware it is to abolish and as far as the UN is concerned is to abolish… It’s a ceremony I went through and I know it was very difficult for me, the consequences were far-reaching. So when I started talking about it in Sierra Leone, I don't know if you are aware, I was stoned. And so I am so happy today everybody is talking about it and I actually can tell you there is a reduction in it.
Politico: But the Minister of Gender and Children's Affairs says FGM is here to stay.
Zainab Bangura: Well, that's his opinion. One thing I can say is that the more educated you have a woman, the less likely she is to undergo [the practice]. I have a lot of nieces that have never been through FGM and I don't really bother them about it. They have their right to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’. If I have a daughter she will not.
Politico: And are you disappointed that there is no government policy because if a minister says that, he must be re-echoing a government policy on it.
Zainab Bangura: No, I know there was a decision taken about not having children under 18 [years]. I know that the UN Woman Executive Director who is a very close friend of mine actually had discussions with HE The President. I didn't ask for the details of the question but I know that she said the president made commitments but I don't know what's there. I didn't ask. When a child gets to 18 [years] she will never go there. I think that's the beginning of a process.
Politico: But the reality is that it's still happening to children all over the country.
Zainab Bangura: It is still happening but you have to accept that there has been a reduction. And I think it's a battle we have to fight. We can't give up. We must continue to fight it.
Politico: And finally, Mrs. Zainab Bangura, you now work with the UN, you were Sierra Leone's minister of health, at some point minister of foreign affairs. You had once run for president. Do you plan to have a second bite of the race for president?
Zainab Bangura: You know, I am tired of answering that question. Since I arrived in Sierra Leone, I can say to everybody has been asking me that. I've got a very interesting job which I am very passionate about and I have committed to people like the Yazidis in Iraq and the women in Iraq and DRC to be able to see what I can do to help them. I enjoy the job I do. So for me, for now, I think I am very content. And in any case I think the politics started too early in Sierra Leone. You know we have serious problems. Two years is a long time in politics so I don't think we should throw politics in the heart of our discussions today. I get very amazed, everywhere I go people think that I am arriving in Sierra Leone to announce that I am contesting the election. That's definitely not, because I have a job. As a UN staff I cannot contest election while I am a UN staff.
Politico: You could resign next year and run in 2018
Zainab Bangura: I think I don't want to cross that bridge before I get there.
Politico: Is that a ‘maybe’ or a ‘yes’?
Zainab Bangura: No. No. No I have a very good job. I am happy about it. I am having pressure to be able to stay for some time. Not pressure from the institution, it's pressure from the people I work with because they are receiving very good service from what I give them. So I think that's what my focus for now.
Politico: You are quoted as saying that you are the most competent Sierra Leonean to lead the country. Is that a correct attribution, and if so do you stand by it?
Zainab Bangura: I didn't say I am the most competent Sierra Leonean because I think that will be very arrogant. And if there is anything I have learnt from my boss Ban Ki Moon is how to be humble. I said there is no Sierra Leonean who would tell me they are more qualified. I am qualified, I am competent, I have the ability to do it. The reason why I said so: if you look at my experience and exposure - civil society, two ministries in Sierra Leone, Foreign Affairs in which I did extremely well even if people don't want to recognise that. I have worked for the UN in Liberia. I worked there as head of the civil affairs, I actually managed 17 ministries…37 government agencies. I receive daily report on them and I work in the UN in a position where, inasmuch as my mandate is sexual violence, I sit there at the table when all the issues are discussed. So it's a combination of civil society, national politics, senior ministerial [positions], international level, private sector - I worked in insurance for 13 years. So I said, ‘you tell me the Sierra Leonean that has all those combinations that has put on different hats’. Yes there are people who might be well educated than I am, they have PhD which I don’t [have]. There are people who have worked in top private sector and international organisations but the combination of all of them. You know, the most senior position a Sierra Leonean woman has ever held is foreign affairs and there are two - one is me. In the UN, we have had four UnderSecretaries General, Dr Davidson Nicol, Dr James Jonah, Dr Kandeh Yumkella and myself, the only woman. So I said, if I die today, I die a very happy person because I have been able to achieve what I would never have thought, my parents would never have thought coming from this background.
So I am proudly saying that I would like somebody to challenge me that there is any Sierra Leonean in this country who's got various, diverse professional experience and expertise than I have.
Politico: Sounds like you are releasing your CV for a top job...
Zainab Bangura: (Laughs) Not exactly, people sometimes say you people are not fit for this job or that… So I just said listen, that's my option, I have to make that decision. You cannot tell me I am not competent. So all you can say is that we don't like her. I can't force you to like me but I want you to respect me.
Politico: Can I ask you this question, if you were health minister when Ebola happened in Sierra Leone how would you have responded to it?
Zainab Bangura: You know one of the things I learnt when I became minister of health is that nobody had a monopoly over knowledge. I went to the ministry of health with no idea what health was. The first five months I never traveled. I took the time to learn, I listened, I contacted development partners, all the UN agencies who are working on health, the NGOs in the health sector, private sector, the Medical and Dental Association, the Midwives and Nurses Association, I listened to them. I asked questions and within the first five or six months I was very confident and competent enough and I was able to manage the health sector in a successful way. And therefore I think Ebola was new to us. The first thing I could have requested was help to get me to listen and understand. So I don't know whether I could have done it better in other ways. I don't like to criticise people because I know you can only deal with a situation when you are on the seat. It's easier for me to say as an outsider that you are not doing well.
Politico: People say that the health system was largely dysfunctional and that you, when you were health minister, had made certain recommendations for reform which were thrown through the window
Zainab Bangura: I don't know whether they were thrown through the window because I gave my report to the president. I don't know whether the minister actually implemented it or not.
Politico: Have you seen any of those things you recommended right now in force?
Zainab Bangura: I've been away for two years. I haven't gone to hospital to find out whether things are there or not. But you know health is a very complex ministry. I have to tell you, I had to go to Harvard to be trained and I think we really need to appreciate that. The other problem we have I think is the human resource. We are not investing in human resource in the health sector. In Sierra Leone for example, we don't have a biomedical engineer, we don't have a maintenance department and culture within the health sector. We're just trying to put it together. So I can openly say that when I left, in my report I wrote to the president, I said the health sector was in crisis. Ebola is a symptom of a much bigger problem. What happened to us with Ebola, is not just the Ebola itself. It tells you that we have a lot of problems with the health sector. Why do you have to take a patient from Kailahun to Kenema to do a test? Ebola spreads through movements of people. I am happy we've managed to get it under control.
(C) Politico 19/01/16
